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Analysis Of The Gaza/Egypt/Israel Situation

Posted by Atilla89 on February 1, 2008

I found an interesting article in the Australian Jewish News today. The article (‘Coming to terms with the new Gaza conundrum’) is not available on the AJN website at the moment however if it does become available I will link it from this entry. The basis of what it was trying to say is that Israel should use the opportunity of Egypt becoming involved to put the problem onto them. Israel would be basically saying to Egypt, here, they broke out into your country, therefore it is now your responsibility. Israel has been trying to do this for a while. For example, after the 6-day war, Israel attempted to open up negotiations with Egypt, Syria and Jordan in order to exchange land for peace; however they were answered with the famous ‘3 noes’. However there are others who believe that a handover of responsibility “…would expose Israel to worse terrorism than ever and that Israel instead should clamp down on all crossing points: between Israel and Gaza, Gaza and Egypt and Israel and Egypt.”

To be honest, I think a combination of those ideas would be best. Israel, most certainly, should clamp down even more tightly between Gaza and Israel. Israel should continue some sort of embargo against Gaza, including food electricity and so on, even if it is not nearly as effective as it was before. As well as this, Israel should put more troops and patrols on the Israeli-Egyptian border because now as IDF Major-General Yom Tov Samya, who is responsible for Gaza and the Egyptian front argues that “…Israel must act quickly to reinforce its control along the border with Egypt from the Mediterranean to Eilat. This means increasing patrols along the entire Israeli-Egyptian border. If those steps are not taken, Samya says, terrorists will be able to move out of Gaza into the Sinai and threaten Israeli civilian populations.” (emphasis added).

Another important point that the article mentions is the fact of the open border that now exists between Gaza and Egypt. It is also important to remember that Egypt can only put a certain amount of troops in the Sinai desert because of agreements with Israel. When considering these factors, it only makes sense that a large number of weapons are headed to the Gaza Strip to be used against Israel. Former Israeli national security adviser Giora Eiland believes that “…to cement the break [between Gaza and Israel], Gaza should be detached from the customs union with Israel and the West Bank and force it to turn to Egypt for sustenance and trade.” Eiland acknowledges that “…an open border with Egypt will accelerate the flow of heavy weaponry into Gaza, but says Israel should deal with that be defining Gaza as an ‘enemy entity’ and establishing a deterrent balance with it, – the way it does with enemy states like Syria.”

This goes back to my original point of Israel clamping down on military activities that are negative to Israel. I also want to point out that by clamping down, it can go as far as the IDF going back into the Gaza Strip to restore order and protect Israeli citizens in towns such as Sderot. By doing so they would smash Hamas; however I do think that it would be unlikely to happen during this year (I can not make any predictions beyond then).

Egyptian forces use barbed wire to breach the gap in the border between Egypt and Rafah, southern Gaza (31/01/2008)
Egypt wants to restore shared control of the border with Gaza ( Image and description taken from the BBC website)
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14 Responses to “Analysis Of The Gaza/Egypt/Israel Situation”

  1. […] unknown wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptI found an interesting article in the Australian Jewish News today. The article (’Coming to terms with the new Gaza conundrum’) is not available on the AJN website at the moment however if it does become available I will link it from this entry. The basis of what it was trying to say is that Israel should use the opportunity of Egypt becoming involved to put the problem onto them. Israel would be basically saying to Egypt, here, they broke out into your country, therefore it is now your responsibility. Israel has been trying to do this for a while. For example, after the 6-day war, Israel attempted to open up negotiations with Egypt, Syria and Jordan in order to exchange land for peace; however they were answered with the famous ‘3 noes’. However there are others who believe that a handover of responsibility “…would expose Israel to worse terrorism […] […]

  2. Interesting that you advocate the 9more)displacement of Palestinians. And more so, your view that “Israel should clamp down even more tightly between Gaza and Israel. Israel should continue some sort of embargo against Gaza, including food electricity and so on, even if it is not nearly as effective..”

    I guess this sort of anti-Semitic type of view is consistent with Israeli mentality! While Israel cries antisemitism with every breath a “gentile” takes, it practices the very same against other Semites. Despicable. But then again, what else should we expect from NaZionists?

    ATW

  3. Atilla89 said

    “Israel should clamp down even more tightly between Gaza and Israel. Israel should continue some sort of embargo against Gaza, including food electricity and so on, even if it is not nearly as effective..”

    Do you actually realise what I was trying to say? The point of that is to force Hamas to stop launching rockets at civilians populations. That was the purpose of the original embargo. Hamas still have not stop launching those rockets, therefore the embargo should stay and be tightened.

    Its very easy, try and kill civilians, no food or electricity from Israel. BTW, your use of the word ‘antisemitism’ is laughable, I mean hint: at least look it up in a dictionary. As for ‘displacement of Palestinians’, I don’t see how giving responsibility to Egypt to look after them is a bad thing, or actually displacing them. Egypt actually controlled the Gaza Strip between 1948 to 1967 and there was no problem between the Gazan’s and Egyptians over that issue.

  4. It is easy? The killing is happening from one side of the fence. The Israeli side. They’re the ones killing Palestinians. Give the numbers, if you dare. How many Israelis died (on stolen Palestinian lands mind you) versus Palestinians killed as a result of F-16’s, Apache’s and Tanks? Go ahead. I’m waiting!

    ATW

  5. Atilla89 said

    The INTENTIONAL killing of civilians is happening from one side of the fence, that of the Palestinians. Go on, I dare you to justify Hamas leaders actively baying for Jewish blood. Compare that with the RESTRAINED Israeli response of trying to minimize Palestinian casualties, even when Hamas terrorists are using them as human shields.

    As for your next point, do you want to know why there are far less Israeli’s dying? Its not because any lack of effort on Hamas’s part, it is because the IDF is a much better security force then the lunatics in Hamas. It is because instead of investing all their money in weapons, Israel actually has an ambulance system that works.

    “on stolen Palestinian lands”

    I could write a book on Israeli history but I won’t. To sum it up, 1947 partition plan which was accepted by the word, gave a homeland for the Jews. Most land prior to that date which was under Jewish control was bought. After that in the 6-day war, Israel gained territory in a defensive war. They since gave back 93% of that in the pursuit of peace. They have fulfilled UN Resolution 242 which states that Israel has to give some of the territory back in exchange for peace. Israel has done that yet there is no peace from the Palestinians.

  6. Pathetic response. Let me educate you a bit. For every Israeli child killed, 9 Palestinian children were killed by your Settlers and Israeli NaZionists.

    So don’t try to convince us that Israel “restrained” itself. In the middle of the night of June 11, 1967, amid the euphoria of Israel’s victory in the Six-Day War, 135 Palestinian families comprising over 600 people in the Mughrabi Quarter neighborhood of Jerusalem’s Old City were roused from their sleep, removed from their beds by Israeli security officials, and ordered outside. There homes were then demolished. You obviously do not read because if you did, you woul have found the truth and the sources on my blog and in the last post. It’s obvious to everyone throughout the World, INCLUDIN Israeli activists, that it is Israel to blame and it is Israel that is the terrorist and racist nation.

    As for the “partition” you refer to, most Zionists tried to brainwash Jews all over the world with the exact thing you are saying! The findings of – let me surprise again – Jewish Historians, as I quote below, were as follows:

    “First of all, we found out that the Zionist leadership, the Israeli leadership, regardless of the peace plans of the United Nations, contemplated long before 1948 the dispossession of the Palestinians, the expulsion of the Palestinians.” Ilan Pappe

    and…

    “..one of the New Historians, Avi Shlaim from Oxford, would write a book that is called the Iron Wall. In this book, he shows that not only in 1948, but since 1948 until today, there were quite a lot of junctures in history where there was a chance for peace, and it failed not because the Arab world refused to exploit the chance, but rather because the Israelis rejected the peace offer.”

    This is the truth according to Israeli Historians – those with hearts and an eye for justice and the truth.

    ATW

  7. Atilla89 said

    “Pathetic response. Let me educate you a bit. For every Israeli child killed, 9 Palestinian children were killed by your Settlers and Israeli NaZionists.”

    Ok, before I address that comment, can I just tell you how offensive the term ‘NaZionists’ is. The implications of it are obvious and incredibly offensive to one who lost a lot of family members in the Holocaust. Keep your argument civil and instead of offensive or you will not be allowed to comment.

    Now back to your point, as I said earlier the reason why so little Israeli civilians are killed is because of the IDF and Israeli health services. “Its not because any lack of effort on Hamas’s part, it is because the IDF is a much better security force then the lunatics in Hamas. It is because instead of investing all their money in weapons, Israel actually has an ambulance system that works.”

    As well as this, it is not Israel who are using mass human shields like Hamas (and Hezbollah) do.

    “So don’t try to convince us that Israel “restrained” itself.”

    I will, and you want to know why? Israel could bomb the, for lack of a better word, the shit out of Gaza Strip and kill everyone there with minimal casualties. It would not be Hamas that could stop them, nor anybody else for that matter.

    “In the middle of the night of June 11, 1967, amid the euphoria of Israel’s victory in the Six-Day War, 135 Palestinian families comprising over 600 people in the Mughrabi Quarter neighborhood of Jerusalem’s Old City were roused from their sleep, removed from their beds by Israeli security officials, and ordered outside. There homes were then demolished.”

    Do you understand what war is? Do you know the term ‘enemy combatant’? Israel had just fought a war with nearly every Arab in the local vicinity. I think you can excuse Israel for not trusting any Arabs just after a war like that.

    “As for the “partition” you refer to, most Zionists tried to brainwash Jews all over the world with the exact thing you are saying! The findings of – let me surprise again – Jewish Historians, as I quote below, were as follows:

    “First of all, we found out that the Zionist leadership, the Israeli leadership, regardless of the peace plans of the United Nations, contemplated long before 1948 the dispossession of the Palestinians, the expulsion of the Palestinians.” Ilan Pappe”

    There has never been an Israeli policy of kicking out the Palestinians or Arabs in Israel, never. That is an outright lie by Ilan Pappe. Let me point you to the evidence. Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf14.html#b

    In numerous instances, Jewish leaders urged the Arabs to remain in Palestine and become citizens of Israel. The Assembly of Palestine Jewry issued this appeal on October 2, 1947:

    We will do everything in our power to maintain peace, and establish a cooperation gainful to both [Jews and Arabs]. It is now, here and now, from Jerusalem itself, that a call must go out to the Arab nations to join forces with Jewry and the destined Jewish State and work shoulder to shoulder for our common good, for the peace and progress of sovereign equals.4

    On November 30, the day after the UN partition vote, the Jewish Agency announced: “The main theme behind the spontaneous celebrations we are witnessing today is our community’s desire to seek peace and its determination to achieve fruitful cooperation with the Arabs….”5

    Israel’s Proclamation of Independence, issued May 14, 1948, also invited the Palestinians to remain in their homes and become equal citizens in the new state:

    In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions….We extend our hand in peace and neighborliness to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.

    “..one of the New Historians, Avi Shlaim from Oxford, would write a book that is called the Iron Wall. In this book, he shows that not only in 1948, but since 1948 until today, there were quite a lot of junctures in history where there was a chance for peace, and it failed not because the Arab world refused to exploit the chance, but rather because the Israelis rejected the peace offer.”

    Not given the Arabs a chance for peace? Are you out of your mind? Let me think back only 8 years ago, when Barack offered practically everything Arafat wanted, but Arafat walked away with not even a counter offer! Let me look back 41 years ago, to the 6-day war, if you read my article you would have noticed that I mentioned that Israel tried to make peace with its Arab neighbors what was rejected by the 3 noes. To put it bluntly it has been the Palestinians and Arabs who have rejected the peace offers.

    “This is the truth according to Israeli Historians – those with hearts and an eye for justice and the truth.”

    Only to some on the far-left, most who have little standing in Israeli academia.

  8. My dear- for a lack of a better word – friend.

    You lost a lot of family members in the Holocaust? Well, then, of all people, you should be more of a human than these thugs of the Israeli leadership, towards Palestinians and their suffering. When your own soldiers tour the world exposing how they were ordered to “shoot-to-kill” and indiscriminately, (and these are obviously much younger people than, I assume, you and yet they have human blood still flowing in their veins).

    Did you ever bother to watch the videos of the Settlers actions against Palestinians (posted on my blog)? Justify these barbarians actions, would you?

    You really do not read anything. You’re simply eager to respond to me and satisfy or defend your Zionist brain-washed mind. If Ilan Pappe, Jewish (Israeli) Historians and activists in Israel are discounted by you and the likes of you, then it’s obvious that you are totally blind to the truth and prefer a more hard-line Nazi-like approach. Your source, unlike mine, is but a naturally biased one and confirms my earlier statement that Jews around the world are being brain-washed with such lies. While I could have used Palestinian sources, I always prefer to find another source that is detached from the Palestinian Holocaust and Israeli Apartheid. Or one that is from the heart of Israel itself.

    When your former Chief Rabbi and his son (also a Rabbi) made statements as “If they don’t stop after we kill 100, then we must kill a thousand,” (said Shmuel Eliyahu). “And if they do not stop after 1,000 then we must kill 10,000. If they still don’t stop we must kill 100,000, even a million. Whatever it takes to make them stop.”

    Can you deny that such statements from such religious figures are in parallel with Nazism? Didn’t Nazis attempt to obliterate the Jews? Israel is doing the same now to the Palestinians. This is the GOAL of Zionism, right? Rid all of Palestine from Palestinians. This is also clear in your laws of “creating a Jerusalem with a minimum 70% Israelis and no more than 30% Palestinians.” This is “democracy?” This is the “Jewish Ben Laden” doctrine! Again, this is further proven by your founders (Ben-Gurion, for example, and his quotes: I have posted some on my blog).

    Of all people in the world, Jews should be more understanding of the Palestinian suffering because of the Holocaust. Of all people, they should act more humanely and not suffocate Gaza as if it was a concentration camp, or make comments like “The people of Gaza will be thinner but they will not die.” Appalling! So the Germans throwing Jews in concentration camps was simply to help lose weight, right? Despicable.

    But of all your illogical responses, I find it intriguing that you refer to the demolition of Palestinian homes immediately after the Six-day war, justifiable. You refuse to go to the source and read the story. These civilians had nothing to do with the war. Your justification of such Nazi-like action is the reason I use the term you hate so much.

    And finally, I find it amazing that you state that the truth as I present it is simply that of a “far-left with little standing in Israeli academia.” Interesting: so whatever the “right” says is “truth” and whatever criticism that cannot be handled is labeled “left?”

    ATW

  9. Atilla89 said

    “Well, then, of all people, you should be more of a human than these thugs of the Israeli leadership, towards Palestinians and their suffering. When your own soldiers tour the world exposing how they were ordered to “shoot-to-kill” and indiscriminately, (and these are obviously much younger people than, I assume, you and yet they have human blood still flowing in their veins).”

    Don’t get me wrong, I don’t hate Arabs or Muslims, in fact I have attended several publicised interfaith dialog events where Muslims (and Muslim-Arabs) are involved. Israeli soldiers are taught not to kill indiscriminately if that were the case there would be a whole lot more dead Palestinians. However, I think it is ok to have a shoot to kill policy in PARTS of the West Bank where there is a high risk of a terrorist attack. I don’t see what’s wrong with that, soldiers should have a right to defend themselves (within reason), especially while in that area.

    “Did you ever bother to watch the videos of the Settlers actions against Palestinians (posted on my blog)? Justify these barbarians actions, would you?”

    Yes, I have seen those videos before. And no I would not justify them, I think they are disgusting and those people have no respect for other human beings. But you need to understand, treating Arabs like that is not an Israeli policy. It may be the policy of a MINORITY of settlers in the West Bank, but it is not Israeli policy.

    “You really do not read anything.”

    And you really should stop assuming things.

    “You’re simply eager to respond to me and satisfy or defend your Zionist brain-washed mind.”

    No, I wish to respond to you because I enjoy a good debate about politics especially if it is to correct the lies coming from your mouth.

    “If Ilan Pappe, Jewish (Israeli) Historians and activists in Israel are discounted by you and the likes of you, then it’s obvious that you are totally blind to the truth and prefer a more hard-line Nazi-like approach.”

    If someone writes something that is blatantly wrong, you want me to agree with that? I’m sorry but I have a working intelligent brain here. If something is wrong or I don’t agree with it and present arguments that are logical, then that is my perspective and you are welcome to challenge it (as you are doing now). Also, why do you keep bringing these terms ‘nazi-like’ or ‘NaZionist’ into your arguments? You must know how false that comparison is yet you still do it. There is nothing nazi-like in what I say. Do I want the killing of all Palestinians and Arabs? No. Do I wish to deport Israeli-Arabs from Israel, no. Do I consider Arabs and Palestinians a lesser form of humanity? No. Why then do you consider my views as nazi-like, give examples when you respond.

    “Your source, unlike mine, is but a naturally biased one and confirms my earlier statement that Jews around the world are being brain-washed with such lies. While I could have used Palestinian sources, I always prefer to find another source that is detached from the Palestinian Holocaust and Israeli Apartheid. Or one that is from the heart of Israel itself.”

    Naturally biased? It was a quote given by an Israeli politician who represented the official policy of Israel which wished that the Arabs stay. As well as this, the source that I gave you actually used OTHER sources to back up their claims. If you wish to say that my source is biased, the onus is on you to prove it.

    “When your former Chief Rabbi and his son (also a Rabbi) made statements as “If they don’t stop after we kill 100, then we must kill a thousand,” (said Shmuel Eliyahu). “And if they do not stop after 1,000 then we must kill 10,000. If they still don’t stop we must kill 100,000, even a million. Whatever it takes to make them stop.”

    Can you deny that such statements from such religious figures are in parallel with Nazism?”

    To be honest with you, I think this guy is a nutter. He is from the radical right of religious Zionism. A lot of what he says is just pure nonsense. I mean what you have shown is an example of this, there is another, when he said that the holocaust was just divine punishment for the secular Jews of the time. I also think that is crap. I can’t deny that his statements are in parralel with Nazism or an ideology similar to that. However I can speak with authority when I say that his view of Zionism is absolutely warped, I mean he was a friend to the Kahanists, and organisation that is now banned in Israel.

    Now there is an important point that you must remember. Which are the people in charge of Israel. Is it the Chief Rabbi or the Prime minster? Who ultimately makes the decisions? The only quotes that I really care about in politics are from the people who have the power to actually make the decisions. The Chief Rabbi is not one of these, therefore I dismiss these ridiculous comments simply because they have no bearing on the situation. He does not make the decisions, hence why no one actually listened or cared what he said, including the Prime Minister in power at the time.

    “Didn’t Nazis attempt to obliterate the Jews? Israel is doing the same now to the Palestinians. This is the GOAL of Zionism, right?”

    Oh be serious now. That is a ridiculous argument, did I not already show you quotes proving that the Jews wanted to live side by side with their neighbours? If you didn’t read it then here it is again: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf14.html#b

    And here’s another one: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf18.html#k

    BTW, I don’t know what Zionism you’ve been looking at, but the stated goal of Zionism is to have a state for Jews in which they can live in without being prosecuted for their religion.

    “Rid all of Palestine from Palestinians. This is also clear in your laws of “creating a Jerusalem with a minimum 70% Israelis and no more than 30% Palestinians.” This is “democracy?” This is the “Jewish Ben Laden” doctrine! Again, this is further proven by your founders (Ben-Gurion, for example, and his quotes: I have posted some on my blog).”

    Do you have a source for that law, I have not been able to find it.

    “Of all people in the world, Jews should be more understanding of the Palestinian suffering because of the Holocaust. Of all people, they should act more humanely and not suffocate Gaza as if it was a concentration camp, or make comments like “The people of Gaza will be thinner but they will not die.” Appalling! So the Germans throwing Jews in concentration camps was simply to help lose weight, right? Despicable.”

    First, you need to provide the source where you got that comment from. Did you actually learn how to debate? As for the rest of your argument, I have been trying to tell you that yes Jews do understand what they are suffering, hell, jews were stateless for 2000 years! However when another party like the Palestinians reject endless peace offers and insist on using terror, such methods like blockades and security checks must be put in place. The people you should be angry at are Hamas who refuse to negotiate with Israel at all.

    “But of all your illogical responses, I find it intriguing that you refer to the demolition of Palestinian homes immediately after the Six-day war, justifiable. You refuse to go to the source and read the story. These civilians had nothing to do with the war. Your justification of such Nazi-like action is the reason I use the term you hate so much.”

    I hate it so much because it is the wrong word to use, and it is also offensive when it is used in such a blatantly wrong way. But, I will say it again, acts of sabotage are not uncommon from a civilian population after a war. Especially when that former enemy civilian population is located in such a sensitive area. Those people that were moved were given compensation and a new place to settle. Problem: none.

    “And finally, I find it amazing that you state that the truth as I present it is simply that of a “far-left with little standing in Israeli academia.” Interesting: so whatever the “right” says is “truth” and whatever criticism that cannot be handled is labeled “left?””

    The truth as you present it is an opinion, and my opinion of it as well as of many Israelis is that it is far-left and has little standing because much of it is false as I have just demonstrated to you.

  10. If you would have read my last post you would have found the statements I referred to in my last reply.

    But this statement about Palestinians getting thinner is herewith included: “Dov Weissglas: “It’s like an appointment with a dietitian. The Palestinians will get a lot thinner, but won’t die.”

    And we know who this thug is. While the so-called peace process is moving forward for the benefit of the U.S. and the rest of the world, internally (in Israel), the plan is exactly the opposite: to prevent the Palestinians from having a Palestinian State. Read the Israeli Insider once in a while rather the one source you like so much!

    So please stop with the “offers for peace” Israel offered! Not once have they done so genuinely! The useless Arab leaders would have jumped at the chance of a peace offer to end this problem they find on their hands”: Palestinian refugees. And why would Arabs and Palestinians even believe Israel? In 1947 and with the partition, the U.N. “gave” more land to the Jewish minority than the majority living there: Palestinians. A fact that cannot be denied.

    “Beginning with the founding of Israel as a Jewish state in 1948, Palestinians have been treated as second-class citizens and enemies from within. Each of the “Basic Laws,” the foundation of the Israeli legal system, begins with a statement that Israel is a Jewish state. For example, the purpose of the Basic Law: Human Dignity and Freedom is “to establish the values of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.”

    From 1948 until 1966, Palestinians inside Israel were subject to military law, while Jews lived under civilian law. During that time, 66 percent of Arab-owned land was confiscated. In 1947, Jews owned 6.7 percent while Palestinians held the rest. Today, Israeli Palestinians, 20 percent of the population, own 2.5 percent of the land.” – Source: Ellen Davidson for Haaretz in December 2007.

    “The ideological motive is rooted in a policy decision establishing that a demographic balance must be maintained in the city at a ratio of 70 percent Jews to 30 percent Palestinians. The ministerial committee known as the Gafni Commission laid down this policy in 1973.”

    And while any Jew can claim Israeli citizenship and buy lands in Israel or Palestine, Palestinians are not given the same opportunity, and again, a fact that cannot be denied.

    You really have not demonstrated anything here (as you claim) other than repeating the same old song for the most part. You claim certain points that you consider the “truth.” I provide “truth” based on world opinion, Israeli opinion and many times, “Western” opinion, including U.S. and European opinions. You can’t convince me that these opinions are all wrong and that your one source of information is the only “truth.” If you think I present lies, that is your problem. When I lived in Palestine and worked with both Israelis and Palestinians, I learned a common proverb, if you will, that when paraphrased, means: “One who lies will not believe others.” This, in essence, means that such a person believes everyone is a liar because “he himself” is a liar.

    Regardless, the truth is in what history records even when history lies (because it is written by the winners), some truths cannot escape. Such truths include the Zionist immigration to Palestine, Ben-Gurion’s statements (look them up), Rabbi’s, and even those who you consider “nuts” are in positions of power and influence, affect their followers, don’t you think? And with Israel’s history of defiance, a defiance of 59 (at last count) U.N. Resolutions, then what conclusions does the world reach? When Iraq violated just one, it was invaded and sent back to the stone ages.

    Let me just raise one more point: Zionism. If it was only for establishing a home for the Jews, even at the expense of Palestinians, then why does Zionism still exist now that the goal was achieved and then some? Is there a “bigger” home being sought? Maybe the whole of Palestine? Maybe from the Nile to the Euphrates?

    ATW

  11. Atilla89 said

    “While the so-called peace process is moving forward for the benefit of the U.S. and the rest of the world, internally (in Israel), the plan is exactly the opposite: to prevent the Palestinians from having a Palestinian State. Read the Israeli Insider once in a while rather the one source you like so much!”

    Yeah, because that makes a lot of sense, not. The purpose of the peace plans is for peace, through a palestinian state, I by the way do support a state for the Palestinians, but don’t get me wrong, the only way they are going to get it is if they stop terrorism and actually start to control their militias.

    “So please stop with the “offers for peace” Israel offered! Not once have they done so genuinely!”

    WTF?!?I gave you 3 cases of when they genuinely wanted peace!

    “The useless Arab leaders would have jumped at the chance of a peace offer to end this problem they find on their hands”: Palestinian refugees. And why would Arabs and Palestinians even believe Israel? In 1947 and with the partition, the U.N. “gave” more land to the Jewish minority than the majority living there: Palestinians. A fact that cannot be denied.”

    Ok, first, the Palestinians will not be able to settle in Israel, there are more Palestinians then Jews, and Israel would stop being a Jewish state. Remember the whole point of Israel was to be a democratic Jewish state because of the amount of antisemitism in the world. Secondly, the UN gave more land, that is true. Have you ever actually looked at the extra land that the UN gave? Its all desert; that’s right, inhospitable desert with no chance of growing crops. I don’t the Arabs should be complaining with what they got, the Jews weren’t. Don’t forget that Jordan was originally meant to be the Arab state for Arabs… Next point, in the year of 2000 Ehud Barak made a genuine effort to solve the problem of the refugees. He proposed something a long the lines of mass compensation for all those involved and a new place for them to live in the future Palestinian state. Guess what, Arafat refused! And you know what else, there was not even a counter offer! That is a crime.

    “Beginning with the founding of Israel as a Jewish state in 1948, Palestinians have been treated as second-class citizens and enemies from within. Each of the “Basic Laws,” the foundation of the Israeli legal system, begins with a statement that Israel is a Jewish state. For example, the purpose of the Basic Law: Human Dignity and Freedom is “to establish the values of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.”

    Your point? That was the whole of idea of Zionism, to establish a Jewish state.

    “From 1948 until 1966, Palestinians inside Israel were subject to military law, while Jews lived under civilian law.”

    You fail to look at context. This was just after the independence war when all the Arabs in the area had attacked the Israel, I am also talking about the Arabs inside of Israel. I think you can understand in the years since why there was a need for them to be under military law, acts of sabotage and terrorism were carried right up until the start of the 6-day war.

    “During that time, 66 percent of Arab-owned land was confiscated. In 1947, Jews owned 6.7 percent while Palestinians held the rest. Today, Israeli Palestinians, 20 percent of the population, own 2.5 percent of the land.” – Source: Ellen Davidson for Haaretz in December 2007.”

    Again, go back and read up on the Independence war to find your answer as to why they (Arabs/Palestinians) lost so much in a war in which they lost.

    “And while any Jew can claim Israeli citizenship and buy lands in Israel or Palestine, Palestinians are not given the same opportunity, and again, a fact that cannot be denied.”

    Do you understand the term positive discrimination? Positive discrimination is applied to Jews because Israel is a haven for Jews. However it is not racism for one important fact. The rest of the word that is not Jewish must face the same procedures and tests as any other civilian would to move to another country. An American moving to live in Israel would face the same procedures and tests as a Palestinian or Arab. What you are applying in the above comment is a double standard and that is wrong.

    “Regardless, the truth is in what history records even when history lies (because it is written by the winners), some truths cannot escape. Such truths include the Zionist immigration to Palestine, Ben-Gurion’s statements (look them up), Rabbi’s, and even those who you consider “nuts” are in positions of power and influence, affect their followers, don’t you think? And with Israel’s history of defiance, a defiance of 59 (at last count) U.N. Resolutions, then what conclusions does the world reach? When Iraq violated just one, it was invaded and sent back to the stone ages.”

    Disregarding that paragraph as I can not see the point of it in this debate. Let me give you another lesson in truth. Truth is about getting the facts and events and matching them together to create the truth while basing them on evidence such as oral testimony’s and such. An example of a lie or mis truth is actually staring me in the face just a few lines of where I am writing this. “When Iraq violated just one” Actually no, Iraq violated 17 UN Security Council Resolutions, which was why it was invaded by the Coalition let by America.

    “Let me just raise one more point: Zionism. If it was only for establishing a home for the Jews, even at the expense of Palestinians, then why does Zionism still exist now that the goal was achieved and then some? Is there a “bigger” home being sought? Maybe the whole of Palestine? Maybe from the Nile to the Euphrates?”

    To be honest with you, Many people view Zionism in as many different ways. For me, Zionism was at first having a homeland for the Jews and second protecting that homeland from attack. It was never about conquest as you seem to imply. There is no need for a ‘bigger’ home, Israel exists where it is because that is where the holy sites are for Judaism. Some people have gotten into post-Zionism, I am not one of them.

  12. I must say that your way of debating are equal to that of a teenager. “WTF?” Is this a term used by a serious person who wants to be serious about a debate? But you just made two statements again, that prove that your arguments are based on your opinion rather than facts.

    Israel is a Jewish State and Democratic? Hardly. And I have proven that but you refuse to accept this fact. I will repeat the facts and add some. Israel is an Apartheid state that closely resembles South African Apartheid. Israel defines itself as a “Jewish State”. Palestinian citizens of Israel are denied equal access to land, jobs and resources of the state because they are Palestinian. Anyone of Jewish descent, from anywhere in the world, can automatically become a citizen of Israel. Yet Palestinians who were expelled in 1947-48 are unable to return to their homes and lands. In the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Palestinians are living under a brutal military occupation. They are forced to carry special colored ID cards and are prevented from moving freely from towns and villages. We see this daily and reporters, both American and other, suffered and witnessed such. Furthermore there is a system of Jewish-only bypass roads that Palestinians are prohibited from using! The region is studded with Jewish-only settlements and schools.
    “Positive discrimination?” I am certain now that you don’t know what the term means as you manipulate the facts to fit your weak arguments. If you mean positive discrimination in the sense that the “practice” establishes greater fairness and justice, then where is this happening in Israel? Maybe increased fairness and Justice to any Jew from around the world. But Arab Palestinians, Muslim or Christian, do not get the same “fairness and justice” treatment.

    Let me also add that Orthodox Judaism and its rejection of Zionism is something to ponder. Or do you dare now state that those who follow the Torah’s commandments are also nuts?

    You may be Jewish by faith but you sound more like some of my Jewish friends who consider themselves “modern Jews.” When a “modern Jew” rejects the teachings of Judaism yet justifies arguments using the very same Judaism – which is a faith and not an identity – and again, without practicing the faith, then one would be more of a fundamentalist in his or her views than one with an open mind and mature understanding of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

    Excerpts from JewsAgainstZionism.com: (or are you going to discount these people too?)

    During the period of the British Mandate, the Balfour Declaration, which recognized the eventual possibility of founding a Jewish national homeland, in Palestine, was affirmed to be the British government. The Jewish Agency, who then was the Chief representative of Zionist interests in the Holy Land, was entrusted with the issuance of visas to the Holy Land, thus resulting in an increased Zionist immigration from various parts of the world, which ultimately succeeded in superceding in numbers, the veteran Orthodox dwellers.

    Orthodox Jewry all over the world and the Orthodox Community in the Holy Land in particular, immediately sensed in this stage of Zionist success, the threat of grave danger for the religious future of Jews.

    With the acquisition by the Zionist nationalists of the power to organize communities in Palestine, they formed the Vaad Haleumi Leknesset Yisroel (National Jewish Council Committee). This committee ignored the rights of the Orthodox veteran dwellers who did not recognize this validity of Jewish nationality, and whose identification as Jews was solely with their loyalty to their religious heritage. The religious inhabitants, on the other hand, shuddered at the prospects of spiritual disintegration of World Jewry, with the new rise to power of the Zionist nationalists.

    The Orthodox inhabitants actively objected to being subject to the authority of the secularists. They appealed their cause to the League of Nations, who consequently granted them a “Right of exclusion” to the subjugation to the Vaad Haleumi, which rights provided that any Jew wishing not to be incorporated into the Vaad Haleumi, may remain lawfully independent if he so stated his wish in writing. Thousands of Jews did so.

    It seems that it does not matter what the truth is – even when the source is from Israelis and Orthodox Jews – and as long as you adhere to your own “fundamentalist-like” views and opinions, then everything is justifiable by you and as such Jewish and/or Israeli terrorism.

    ATW

  13. Atilla89 said

    “I must say that your way of debating are equal to that of a teenager. “WTF?” Is this a term used by a serious person who wants to be serious about a debate? But you just made two statements again, that prove that your arguments are based on your opinion rather than facts.”

    Sorry it was based on a moment of frustration. However it is a lot better then term ‘NaZionists’ which you were using. Enough of the Ad hominem.

    “Israel is a Jewish State and Democratic? Hardly. And I have proven that but you refuse to accept this fact. I will repeat the facts and add some. Israel is an Apartheid state that closely resembles South African Apartheid. Israel defines itself as a “Jewish State”. Palestinian citizens of Israel are denied equal access to land, jobs and resources of the state because they are Palestinian. Anyone of Jewish descent, from anywhere in the world, can automatically become a citizen of Israel. Yet Palestinians who were expelled in 1947-48 are unable to return to their homes and lands. In the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Palestinians are living under a brutal military occupation. They are forced to carry special colored ID cards and are prevented from moving freely from towns and villages. We see this daily and reporters, both American and other, suffered and witnessed such. Furthermore there is a system of Jewish-only bypass roads that Palestinians are prohibited from using! The region is studded with Jewish-only settlements and schools.”

    Hah! Instead of responding to that verbally, I will direct you to a video that explains why Israel is not an Apartheid state: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpjQEvmtNdk

    “Positive discrimination?” I am certain now that you don’t know what the term means as you manipulate the facts to fit your weak arguments. If you mean positive discrimination in the sense that the “practice” establishes greater fairness and justice, then where is this happening in Israel? Maybe increased fairness and Justice to any Jew from around the world. But Arab Palestinians, Muslim or Christian, do not get the same “fairness and justice” treatment.”

    Of coarse not, Israel is a Jewish country. Just like it is easier for a Muslim to live in Saudi Arabia, it is easier for a Jew to move to Israel. Anyone can go to Israel and live there, its just that Jews have preference if that makes sense.

    “Let me also add that Orthodox Judaism and its rejection of Zionism is something to ponder. Or do you dare now state that those who follow the Torah’s commandments are also nuts?”

    To be honest I think all fundamentalists of a religion are nuts but that’s besides the point. It is true that hard line Jewish fundamentalists are against the state of Israel however they are in the clear minority. the very clear majority of Orthodox Jews and indeed the rest of Judaism support Israel and its right to exist. If you are referring to the NK, they make up approx. some 3% of total Jews in the world.

    “You may be Jewish by faith but you sound more like some of my Jewish friends who consider themselves “modern Jews.” When a “modern Jew” rejects the teachings of Judaism yet justifies arguments using the very same Judaism – which is a faith and not an identity – and again, without practicing the faith, then one would be more of a fundamentalist in his or her views than one with an open mind and mature understanding of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.”

    Again with the Ad hominem, don’t presume to judge if you have not met, just as I don’t with you. And by the way, Judaism is both an identity and a religion. I garrantee you that you can ask any Jew or anyone from a particular religion whether it be Christian or Muslim and they will say that religion is part of their identity.

    “Excerpts from JewsAgainstZionism.com: (or are you going to discount these people too?)”

    No, but their opinion is in the clear minority and has been for as long as that organisation has been around.

    ” During the period of the British Mandate, the Balfour Declaration, which recognized the eventual possibility of founding a Jewish national homeland, in Palestine, was affirmed to be the British government. The Jewish Agency, who then was the Chief representative of Zionist interests in the Holy Land, was entrusted with the issuance of visas to the Holy Land, thus resulting in an increased Zionist immigration from various parts of the world, which ultimately succeeded in superceding in numbers, the veteran Orthodox dwellers.

    Orthodox Jewry all over the world and the Orthodox Community in the Holy Land in particular, immediately sensed in this stage of Zionist success, the threat of grave danger for the religious future of Jews.

    With the acquisition by the Zionist nationalists of the power to organize communities in Palestine, they formed the Vaad Haleumi Leknesset Yisroel (National Jewish Council Committee). This committee ignored the rights of the Orthodox veteran dwellers who did not recognize this validity of Jewish nationality, and whose identification as Jews was solely with their loyalty to their religious heritage. The religious inhabitants, on the other hand, shuddered at the prospects of spiritual disintegration of World Jewry, with the new rise to power of the Zionist nationalists.

    The Orthodox inhabitants actively objected to being subject to the authority of the secularists. They appealed their cause to the League of Nations, who consequently granted them a “Right of exclusion” to the subjugation to the Vaad Haleumi, which rights provided that any Jew wishing not to be incorporated into the Vaad Haleumi, may remain lawfully independent if he so stated his wish in writing. Thousands of Jews did so.”

    What is the point of this? What are you trying to argue. A clearly biased website (just look at its name) is being used to justify your opinion. Yet I see no outside sources or links to this particular page of the website. At least with the source I gave, I showed you exactly on the website where I was talking about. As well as this, my source is widely accepted by the majority of Jews. Last but not least, the source that I provided, also provides its own sources to back up its claims.

  14. “..my source is widely accepted by the majority of Jews”

    That’s funny. Does that mean all 3 of you?

    You should read my last post about the “Generous offer” Israel made to the Palestinians.

    I’m done here.

    Peace.

    ATW

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